Monday, November 22, 2010

An Individualized Approach to Ovarian Stimulation for IVF is Crucial!

Understanding the Basis for Individualizing Protocols for Ovarian Stimulation:
In order for any organism to attain an optimal state of maturation (ripening) it must first undergo full growth and development. A fruit plucked from a tree before having developed fully or a poorly developed fruit might still ripen (mature) on the shelf and might even appear as enticing as one that had previously undergone proper development, but it will lack the same quality. The same principles apply to the development and maturation of human eggs. Proper development as well as precise timing in the initiation of egg maturation with LH or hCG is no less crucial to optimal egg maturation, fertilization and ultimately to embryo quality. In fact, in cases where egg maturation is improperly timed (LH or hCG is released/given too early, i.e. prematurely or too late, i.e. post-maturely) there is an increased risk of aneuploidy (structural and numerical chromosomal abnormalities) leading to compromised reproductive performance.

The potential for a woman’s eggs to undergo orderly maturation, successful fertilization, and subsequent progression to “good quality embryos” that are capable of producing healthy offspring, is in large part, genetically determined. However, the expression of such potential is profoundly susceptible to numerous extrinsic influences, especially to intra-ovarian hormonal changes during the pre-ovulatory phase of the cycle.

During the normal ovulation cycle, ovarian hormonal changes are orchestrated to avoid irregularities in production and interaction that could adversely influence follicle development and egg quality. As an example, while small amounts of ovarian male hormones (predominantly testosterone) are essential to enhance egg and follicle development, over-exposure to excessive amounts of the same hormones can seriously compromise egg (and subsequently, also embryo) quality. It follows that protocols for ovarian stimulation should be geared towards optimizing follicle and egg development while avoiding overexposure to ovarian male hormones. The fulfillment of these objectives requires a very strategic and individualized approach to ovarian stimulation and precise timing of the human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) “trigger.”

It is important to recognize that the pituitary gonadotropins, LH and FSH, while both playing a pivotal role in follicle development, have different primary sites of action in the ovary. The action of FSH is mainly directed at the cells that line the inside of the follicles (i.e. granulosa cells). LH, on the other hand, acts primarily on the connective tissue that surrounds the follicles (i.e. the ovarian stroma or theca) to compel the production of male hormones. Only a small amount of these hormones (predominantly testosterone) is necessary for optimal estrogen production. Overproduction has a deleterious effect on granulosa cell activity, follicle growth/development, egg maturation, fertilization potential and subsequent embryo quality. Furthermore, excessive ovarian androgens can also compromise estrogen-induced endometrial growth and development.
In conditions such as polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS), which is characterized by increased blood LH levels, there is also an increased ovarian androgen production. It is therefore not surprising that “poor egg/embryo quality” and inadequate endometrial development are often features of this condition. The use of LH-containing preparations such as Repronex might further aggravate this effect. Thus we strongly recommend against the exclusive use of such products, in PCOS patients, preferring FSH-dominant products such as Folistim and Gonal F. While it would seem prudent to limit LH exposure in all cases of ovarian stimulation, this appears to be more relevant in older women, who tend to be more sensitive to LH

Preparing for Ovarian Stimulation:
Before embarking on ovarian stimulation it is essential to try and define the woman’s ovarian reserve (i.e., the number of eggs still available in her ovaries). Determination of the ovarian reserve will assist in defining the protocol of ovarian stimulation that would most safely yield the optimum number and quality of follicles/eggs in a given case. The ovarian reserve can best be assessed by determining the woman’s blood FSH and estradiol (E2) measurement on the 3rd day of a spontaneous menstrual cycle and by evaluating the manner in which she responded to a most recent cycle of treatment. Other blood tests that can also be selectively used to assist in assessing ovarian reserve are measurement of blood antimullerian hormone and inhibin B levels.
Once the ideal stimulation protocol is selected, the next step is to choose a suitable time for IVF treatment. For women who require a repeated cycle it is advisable that at least one-month be allowed to elapse (“resting cycle”) between IVF treatments, in order to allow the ovaries to fully recover from the preceding stimulation.

It is both clinically beneficial as well as convenient to launch IVF cycles with the woman having been on at least 10 days of combined birth control pill (BCP) such as Desogen or Orthonovum 135. A word of warning: one often hears the expressed opinion that the BCP suppresses response to ovarian stimulation. This is NOT the case, provided that the BCP is overlapped with administration of a GnRH agonist (e.g. Lupron, Buserelin) for several days leading up to the start of menstruation and the initiation of ovarian stimulation cycle with fertility drugs. If the latter precaution is not taken, and the cycle of stimulation is initiated coming directly off the BCP the response will often be blunted and subsequent egg quality could be adversely affected. The explanation for this is that in natural (unstimulated) as well as in cycles stimulated with fertility drugs, the ability to properly respond to FSH stimulation is dependent on the recruited follicles having reached the antral phase of development by the time the cycle begins (or similarly, stimulation with fertility dugs is initiated).

The transition of early primary follicles to develop into antral follicles (AF) takes a 3-6 day period of a sustained rise in blood FSH prior to the onset of menstruation.. The BCP (as well as prolonged administration of estrogen/progesterone) suppresses FSH. This suppression needs to be countered by artificially causing blood FSH levels to rise otherwise development will not take place. GnRH agonists (e.g. Lupron, Buserelin, Nafarelin and Synarel) do this by triggering a rapid increase in FSH production. Thus, by overlapping the BCP with an agonist for a few days prior to menstruation the early recruited follicles are able to complete their developmental drive to the AF stage and as such, be ready to respond appropriately to optimal ovarian stimulation. Using this approach, the timing of the initiation of the IVF treatment cycle can readily and safely be regulated and controlled by varying the length of time that the woman is on the BCP.

It is also important that there be no functional ovarian cysts at the time ovarian stimulation commences. To insure this, the patients can undergo an ultrasound examination while on the BCP or at the onset of menses immediately prior to initiating ovarian stimulation. At the onset of bleeding a measurement of blood estradiol (E2) is done to insure that it is low enough (under 70 pg/ml) to start administering the fertility drugs. The commonest cause of an elevated blood E2 level around this time is the existence of one or more ovarian follicular cysts. These should be allowed to absorb, or be aspirated as soon as possible (I personally prefer to aspirate cysts under local anesthesia, on the spot COH.

Unlike GnRH agonists that exert their LH (and FSH) lowering effect by exhausting the pituitary gland of its over 4-7 days GnRH antagonists (such as Ganirelix, Orgalutron, Cetrotide ) do so directly and immediately (within a few hours of administration).Thus both agonists and antagonists of GnRH both serve to establish a “low LH environment” in which follicular and egg development can proceed optimally.

The Choice of Gonadotropin Products to be Prescribed:
The recent availability of DNA-recombinant FSH and LH gonadotropins has made this an easy choice. In my opinion, it is no longer necessary to prescribe urinary-derived menotropins where there could be significant variations in batch to batch biological potency and thus in response to stimulation. There is also (in my opinion) little advantage in using combined FSH/LH urinary-derived products where the additional LH contained in the preparation might in some cases compromise rather than enhance follicle and egg development. Accordingly, with few exceptions I personally only advocate the use of pure DNA-recombinant FSH (Folistim, Puregon and Gonal-F) and LH (Luveris) products for my IVF patients. The exception to this rule is when it comes to prescribing an hCG product. Here I advocate the use of urinary-derived hCG (Profasi, Pregnyl and Novarel) over the DNA recombinant hCG (Ovidrel). In my opinion, at the suggested dosage of administration, Ovidrel lacks the required biological potency. In order to optimize its effect the dosage would have to be doubled and this increases the cost. Besides, the urinary derived hCG products are very effective.

The Protocols:
1. Long GnRH Agonist Protocols:
The most commonly prescribed protocol for agonist/gonadotropin administration is the so-called “long protocol”. An agonist (usually, Lupron) is given either in a natural cycle, starting a 5-7 days prior to menstruation or is overlapped with the BCP for two days whereupon the latter is stopped and the Lupron, continued until menstruation ensues. The agonist precipitates a rapid rise in FSH and LH level, which is rapidly followed by a precipitous decline in the blood level of both, to near zero. This is followed by uterine withdrawal bleeding (menstruation) within 5-7 days of starting the agonist treatment, whereupon gonadotropin treatment is initiated (preferably within 7-10 days of the onset of menses) while daily Lupron injections continue, to ensure a relatively “low LH- environment”. Gonadotropin administration continues until the hCG trigger.

2. GnRH-agonist(“micro-flare”) protocols: Another approach to COH is by way of so-called “microflare protocols”. This involves initiating gonadotropin therapy simultaneously with the administration of GnRH agonist. The intent is to deliberately allow Lupron to affect an initial surge (“flare”) in pituitary FSH release so as to augment ovarian response to the gonadotropin medication. Unfortunately, this approach represents “a double edged sword” as the resulting increased release of FSH is likely to be accompanied by a concomitant (excessive) rise in LH levels that could evoke excessive production of male hormone by the ovarian stroma. The latter in turn could potentially compromise egg quality, especially in women over 39 years of age, women with diminished ovarian reserve, and in women with polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) - all of whose ovaries have increased sensitivity to LH. In this way, “microflare protocols” can potentially hinder egg/embryo development and reduce IVF success rates. While microflare protocols usually are not harmful in younger women and those with normal ovarian reserve, I personally avoid this approach altogether for safety sake.

3. GnRH antagonist protocols: The use of GnRH antagonists as currently prescribed in ovarian stimulation cycles (i.e. the administration of 250mcg daily starting on the 6th or 7th day of stimulation with gonadotropins) may be problematic, especially in women over 39 yrs., women with diminished ovarian reserve (i.e. “poor responders” to gonadotropins), and women with PCOS. Such women tend to have higher levels of LH to start with and as such the initiation of LH suppression with GnRH antagonists so late in the cycle (usually on day 6-7) of stimulation fails to suppress LH early enough to avoid compromising egg development. This can adversely influence egg/embryo quality and endometrial development. As is the case with the “microflare”approach (see above) the use of GnRH antagonist protocols in younger women who have normal ovarian reserve, is acceptable. Again, for reasons of caution, and because I see no benefit in doing so, I personally never prescribe this approach for my patients.

Presumably, the reason for the suggested mid-follicular initiation of high dose GnRH antagonist is to prevent the occurrence of the so called "premature LH surge", which is known to be associated with “follicular exhaustion” and poor egg/embryo quality. However the term “premature LH surge” is a misnomer and the concept of this being a “terminal event” or an isolated insult is erroneous. In fact, the event is the culmination (end point) of the progressive escalation in LH (“a staircase effect”) which results in increasing ovarian stromal activation with commensurate growing androgen production. Trying to improve ovarian response and protect against follicular exhaustion by administering GnRH antagonists during the final few days of ovarian stimulation is like trying to prevent a shipwreck by by removing the tip of an iceberg.

4. The agonist/antagonist conversion protocol (A/ACP): With a few (notable) exceptions I preferentially advocate this protocol for many of my patients. With the A/ACP, as with the long protocol (see above) the woman again prepares to launch her stimulation cycle by taking a BCP for at least ten days before overlapping with an agonist such as Lupron. However, when about 5-7 days later her menstruation starts, she supplants the agonist with a half dosage (125mg) of an antagonist (e.g. Ganirelix, Orgalutron or Cetrotide).Within a few days of this switch-over, gonadotropin stimulation is commenced. Both the antagonist and the gonadotropins are then continued until the hCG trigger. The purpose in switching from agonist to antagonist is to intentionally allow only a very small amount of the woman's own pituitary LH to enter her blood and reach her ovaries, while at the same time preventing a large amount of LH from reaching her ovaries. This is because while a small amount of LH is essential to promote and optimize FSH-induced follicular growth and egg maturation, a large concentration of LH can trigger over-production of ovarian stromal testosterone, with an adverse effect of follicle/egg/embryo quality. Moreover, since testosterone also down-regulates estrogen receptors in the endometrium, an excess of testosterone can also have an adverse effect on endometrial growth. Also, since agonists might suppress some ovarian response to the gonadotropin stimulation, antagonists do not do so. It is for this reason that the A/ACP is so well suited to older women and those with some degree of diminished ovarian reserve.

The follicles/eggs of women on GnRH-agonist “micro-flare protocols” can be exposed to exaggerated agonist-induced LH release, (the “flare effect”) while the follicles/eggs of women, who receive GnRH antagonists starting 6-8 days following the initiation of stimulation with gonadotropins can likewise be exposed to pituitary LH-induced ovarian male hormones (especially testosterone). While this is not necessarily problematic in younger women and those with adequate ovarian reserve (“normal responders”) it could be decidedly prejudicial in “poor responders” and older women where there is increased follicle and egg vulnerability to high local male hormone levels.

5. Long protocol (or A/ACP) with estrogen priming: Women who have a significant degree of diminished ovarian reserve are first given GnRH agonist for a number of days to effect pituitary down-regulation. Upon post-BCP/agonist-induced menstruation, the dosage of GnRH agonist is drastically lowered (or commonly is supplanted by 125mg daily of an antagonist) and the woman is given twice-weekly injections of 2-4mg of estradiol valerate (E2V) for a period of 7-10 days. Ovarian stimulation is then initiated using a relatively high dosage of an FSH-dominant gonadotropins such as Folistim, Puregon or Gonal F for a few days, whereupon the dosage is reduced and a small amount of DNA-recombinant LH (Luveris) is added daily. Both the FSH and the LH are then continued along with daily administration of GnRH agonist (or antagonist) until the “hCG trigger”. The reason for the “estrogen priming” is because it enhances follicle response to FSH and also helps optimize the uterine lining.
We recently reported in a prestigious medical Journal on results using the A/ACP with estrogen priming in older women and women with diminished ovarian reserve where the approach has proven to be most advantageous.

There is one potential drawback to the use of the A/ACP. We have learned that prolonged use of a GnRH antagonist throughout the ovarian stimulation process can compromise the predictive value of serial plasma E2 measurements to evaluate follicle growth and development. It appears that when the antagonist is given throughout stimulation, the blood E2 levels tend to be significantly lower than when the agonist alone is used or where antagonist treatment is only commenced 5-7 days into the ovarian stimulation process. The reason for this is presently unclear. Accordingly, when the A/ACP is employed, we rely more on follicle size monitoring than on serial blood E2 trends to assess progress. Also, younger women (under 30 years) and women with absent, irregular or dysfunctional ovulation, and those with polycystic ovarian syndrome are at risk of developing life-threatening severe ovarian hyperstimulation. The prediction of this condition requires daily access to accurate blood E2 levels. Accordingly we currently tend to refrain from prescribing the A/ACP in such cases, preferring instead use the “standard long-protocol” approach.

36 comments:

  1. Great information here, thank you! Sheds some light on why my first two IVF cycles (with PCOS) were such a mess. :)

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  2. Thanks,

    Feel free to call 800-780-7437 if you wish to discuss your case with me.

    Geoff Sher

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  3. Oh my gosh! This is fantastic. I've been wondering why my last cycle sucked so bad by my first one was great. The difference in protocol likely explains a lot of it! Thank you sharing this well written explanation!

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  4. Thanks so much Kathleen!

    Geoff Sher

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  5. Hello Dr Sher....thnks so much for this info on PCOS !!! I wanted to discuss my case.
    I am 30 yr old female. I have recently been diagnosed with PCOS though I have been suffering with irregular periods, acne and facial hair since many yrs. My free androgen level was 7.5. I did conceive naturally but had a missed miscarriage at 9 weeks as the baby didnt develop a heartbeat. This is my second mc in a row due to the same cause. Could these mc be related to PCOS? Could I take any medication to help me have a baby? What shud be normal androgen level ?

    Thanks a ton !!!
    Richa

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  6. Dear Richa,

    So sorry for your miscarriages.

    You need to consider whether the losses were due to egg issues (PCOS women tend to produce more chromosomally abnormal eggs, especially when the wrong protocol of ovarian stimulation is used). Also, don't automatically exclude an immunologic implantation dysfunction. You need to be fully and thoroughly evaluated at tghis time.

    Feel free to call and set up a free telep[hone conference with me to discuss.

    Geoff Sher

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  7. Hi Dr Sher,
    My wife and I are going through our second cycle of ivf. I dint know if it was the long or short protocol. She was given gonalF starting from the second day and then certitude starting from the 5-6 th day. She was given the gnrh on day 15 and egg retrieval on day 17. The doc has asked us to come on the 5th day after the retrieval. I am starting the count one day after retrieval. Is this the normal procedure. Is it sure that he would be transferring blastocysts only. So the chance are better this time?

    The last time my wife had a little bit of OHSS and because of high e2 levels they had to coast for 2 days.

    Thanks Kishore

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  8. Hello,
    I just had an IVF treatment which my doctor described as co-flare 3+3 protocol. This is what happened:
    Day 2 Results:
    FSH 6.6
    E2 86 pg
    From Day 3 to 14 I had 3 Fostimon (75ml) and 3 Merional (75ml) every day, plus suprefact.

    Even though it seemed that I was starting with 7-8 follicles only 4 developed. The doctor was only able to get 2 eggs. They told me they were not good for fertilization. I am 38 years old.

    It seems that I am not reacting well to this therapy. Plus, whenever I had taken Fostimon before my FSH level in the next cycle shot to over 20 and then it was back to normal.

    Please help me! Your posts make so much sense but I am lost and hopeless!!!

    I just signed up for a consultation with you Dr Sher.

    thank you,
    Miranda

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  9. It is the "Flare protocol that you were on. I suggest you read the information on this very blog relating to this protocol.Since (in spitre of a normal FSH) you responded so poorly, I suspect that in actual fact you might have diminished ovarian reserve and if so this, in my opinion is not the ideal protocol for you.

    You need to repeat the day 3 FSH and E2 and at the same time do an AMH test as well as an Inhibin B.

    Geoff Sher

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  10. Thank you so much Dr Sher.

    This really kills me but I will do the tests. So, I understand that depending on whether I have 'some' or 'severe' form of diminished ovarian reserve I would choose either 4 or 5.

    This is the most useful information I have read in the past 2 years of trying to understand what is happening to me!

    thank you,
    Miranda

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  11. This information is extremely helpful. I posted my situation under the name "fortyplus" on the SIRM West blog. I would love your opinion on whether or not you think I may have a chance of conceiving with my own eggs. I detailed my cycle results, I was on Gonal F, Menopur, and Cetrotide for cycles 1 and 3, and a Lupron protocol for the second. Thank you

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  12. I think we should talk. Consider callling 800-780-7437 and setting up a free telephone consultation...at your convenience.

    Geoff Sher

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  13. hello Dr Sher,
    Thanks so much for your information regarding embryo quality depending on stimulation protocals. I am staying in johannesburg , South Africa. I am 29 years old and my husband is 31.I have mild PCOS. My DH's sperm count is very low and thats why our RE asked us to start for ICSI. In Dec 2010 we started our first ICSI. Since that time we have 2 failed ICSI cycles both ended up with cancelled embryo transfer as no embryo made uptp balstocyst stage. After both the cycles my RE said it was due to the poor egg quality. He said the same as you that viability of an embryo depends on how good eggs are.Now he is saying to start Co-Q, stamingro , Royal jelly , Vit-c , vit D etc to improve my egg quality and to go for 3 sittings of acupuncture one month prior to next ICSI. I am very much confused what to do now as I am not that old to have poor egg quality. In my both failed ICSI cyles no. of eggs retreived were 27 and 20 respectively.

    First failed ICSI stimulation protocol:
    1.Down regulation with lucrin from 21st day of my cycle.

    2. Started 2 -GonalF and 1 Luveris from the first day of my menstruation.

    3. First scan after5 days , then 7 days .

    4. E2 levels were checked, Ovidrel shot on 8th day.

    5. 27 Eggs were collected on 10th day

    6. Out of which 14 fertilized and finally noone could make up to blast stage for transfer.

    Second failed ICSI stimulation protocol:

    1. Scan on 3rd of my menstruation cycle to make sure there is no cyst.

    2. started 2 Gonalfs and 1 luveris from day 3.

    3.From 6th day 1 cetriotide also started with Gonal f and Luveris.

    4. U/s on 7th day ..

    5. On 8th day E2 checked and then again 2 ovidral inj given for ER after 36hrs.

    6. 20 eggs were collected out of which only 13 were mature and 8 were fertilized finally. But once again onone could make upto blast stage again.

    I am really upset Doctor Sher. Dont know what to do now. Your advice is welcome whole heartedly.

    Thanks
    Kamya

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  14. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  15. Hi Dr. Sher,

    I'm not exactly sure which protocol I'm on. I have diminished ovarian reserve with AMH of .4 and FSH of 8. Antral follicle count was 9.

    1. BCP on day 3 of my cycle (lasted 5 days)
    2. ...followed by 3 days of 250 mcg Ganirelix before stims started. stopped Ganirelix until stim day 5, then 250mcg until trigger.
    3. 600 IU of follistim for the first 6 days, then lowered to 75, triggered on day 12 with 10000IUhCG and 450 of follistim.
    4. low-dose hCG was .1mL for stim days 1-6 and went up to .4mL for days 7-11.

    E2 levels looked good through stimulation, 6 eggs retrieved, 4 successfully fertilized. I'm on day 2 of embryo development today. Awaiting a trophoblast biopsy with CCS (using CGH) and hoping for a day 6 fresh transfer.

    Which protocol is this and what are your thoughts?

    Thanks,
    Shelby

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  16. Wish I could help but this is not a protocol I am familiar with.

    Sorry.

    Geoff Sher

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  17. Hi Dr. Sher,

    I had a cancelled IVF(#1) two days ago, due to immature eggs at egg retreival. Both me and my husband were shocked to hear this as we were not prepared for this. I would highly appreciate if you could respond to this post.

    Details:
    I'm 36 yrs. and DH 37 yrs, we've never been pregnant, married for 10 yrs. Started treatments in Canada. Had 4 failed IUI between Dec'10 and April'11 and decided to go in for IVF upon our RE's recommendation.

    IVF Protocol:
    1. BCP (Marvelon 21) on Day 1 - Day 21.
    2. Day 24: Started Menopur 75 IU's in am and 225 IU's Gonal F in pm. (I'm now counting as Day 1 of stimms.)
    2.5. Day 2: Started mensus - had no idea this would happen. Lasted for three days.
    3. Day 5: Estrogen <100 and LH 3.4. Nurse called me to increase my Menopur to take 150 IU, and same Gonal F(225) starting that day and go for bld work again on day 8.
    4. Day 8: Estrogen 330 and LH 4.7. Nurse asked me to take 225 IU of menopur from that day with same Gonal F(225 IU).
    5. Day 10: Estrogen 924 and LH 2.5. I'm asked to start Orgalutran, and continue the above doses of Menopur and GonalF(225 each).
    6. Day 11: 1st Ultrasound of cycle -total 6 follicles seen of which 4 looked around 10-11mm and 2 smaller. Estrogen 1000.
    7. Day 13: Another Ultrasound done: follicle sizes -6, 10, 12, 13, 15. Same dosage of all 3 injections continues. Estrogen now 2500.
    7. Day 15: Ultrasound - two follicles size 14 and one 16, another one small. Estrogen >4000. Same meds.
    8. Day 16: Follicles - 16, 18, 18, 22! Estrogen > 5000. I'm asked to take only orgalutran and then trigger at 10:30 pm, and come back for ER on Day 18.
    9.Day 18: ER done around 9:15 am, five eggs retreived, DH's specimen good.
    10.Day 19: RE calls and says - all eggs immature, (and hence discarded)can't explain why and don't even know how to make it better at this point!

    What a disaster!

    My RE was going to get back to me latest by today afternoon after discussing with colleagues, haven't heard back yet.

    I hope you canexplain where to go from here. Both me and my DH are very upset and confused.

    Thanks much for your help.

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  18. I'm sorry for such a lengthy post - just wanted to make sure, I provide you with details before seeking your opinion.

    Thanks.

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  19. Dear curious5,

    What you described for your stimulation protocol is somewhat strange. Not only have I never administered gonadotropins (e.g. Menopur)starting prior to menses, but the rest of the approach is also somewhat strange too.

    I concur with the use of IVF in your situation, and at your age, with a fertile partner and with adequate ovarian reserve, you should be able to conceive with IVF.

    I am interested to know what is the cause of your fertility issue. Do you have endometriosis?

    Might I recommend that you go to the home page on this site, find a "search bar" in the upper right hand column and type in the following subjects into the bar and it will take you to all the relevant articles I posted there.

    1. "An Individualized Approach to Ovarian stimulation" Posted on November 22nd, 2010
    2. “Agonist/Antagonist Conversion Protocol”
    3. "Immunologic Implantation Dysfunction" (posted on May, 10th and on May 16th respectively.
    4. “IVF success: Factors that influence outcome”
    5. "Endometriosis and IVF”

    When you have read these (and any others that might interest you) please consider calling 800-780-7437 or 702-699-7437 to set up a telephone consultation (which is free for those living in the U.S.A or Canada) with me so we might discuss your case in detail.

    Geoff Sher

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  20. Thanks Dr. Sher, that was a very prompt response.

    I've read the first two articles you suggested, and you're right that my protocol doesn't match either. I will read the other articles as well.

    My cause of IF is "unexplained," based on all my prior blood works and two hsg's in early 2003 and 2006 and recent hysteroscopy.
    No, I don't have endometrosis - at least I've never been told I have it.

    I'd love to set up a telephone consult, I'm in Canada and I cannot afford treatments in the US. I hope you'll still be able to guide me.

    Thanks a lot for your help.

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  21. The free consultation is not contingent upon you coming to the SIRM in the U.S.A for treatment. There is no quid-pro-quo.

    However, I cannot intervene in the treatment by another RE. That would be “micromanaging”. Also you cannot dictate to your treating physician what to do.

    I look forward to talking with you.

    Geoff Sher

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  22. Thanks again Dr. Sher,

    I'm looking forward to talking with you too, want to make sure my DH is around when I do that.

    In the meantime my RE finally got back to me today and said that they will do another cycle of IVF and repeat the same protocol, except with a higher dosage to start with! That would be 225 Menopur and 225 Gonal F. Both me and DH are surprised that's the only change he suggested, besides taking CoQ10 for three months before that.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks.

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  23. I think I have shared my thoughts with you already. Just remember, this is not about appeasing your RE or me for that matter. It is about you having a baby.

    Geoff Sher

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  24. Thanks Dr.Sher, you're right - having a baby is at the toppest of my mind, and that's why I'm being very cautious now and trying to educate myself as much as is required (Your articles are very helpful to that effect-thanks for posting them.)

    Will talk to you soon - have a great weekend!

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  25. Dr. Sher...March 2012 will be my third IVF treatment and my doctor has suggested a different protocol since I just turned 40. He currently has me taking “Iron, Prenatal, Melatonin 3mg, Vitamin D, CoQ-10 200 mg, DHEA 25 mg, L-Arginine 1000 mg, & Inositol 2 gm” to increase the chance for quality eggs. He also indicated that I have forbids, but it is not in my uterine cavity.
    My questions to you..1. Once I start my stimulation meds in March is it okay to continue some of these meds and if so which one? 2. Should I have my forbids removed even though my doc said it wasn't a hender? 3. After the transfer in March should I sleep with a heating pad on my lower stomach and socks? 4. I have read many ladies taking Royal Jelly..my doctor didn’t recommend it, will it increase the egg quality?

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  26. I really cannot give you advice regarding the fibroids without knowing much more. The supplements should not do harm, nor would a heating pad.

    Might I recommend that you go to the home page on this site, find a "search bar" in the upper right hand column and type in the following subjects into the bar and it will take you to all the relevant articles I posted there.

    1. "Uterine Fibroids and IVF"
    2. "Use of Nutritional Supplements in IVF"

    If in the future you feel the need, consider calling 800-780-7437 or 702-699-7437 to set up a telephone consultation (which is free for those living in the U.S.A or Canada) with me so we might discuss your case in detail.

    Good luck!

    Geoff Sher

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  27. Thanks Dr. Sher..Once I start my stimulation meds in March is it okay to continue some of these meds WITH stim med? If so which one?

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  28. None are harmful. However, I would stop with the stimulation to avoid any potential for cross-reactivity.

    Geoff Sher

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  29. Hello,

    I am 38 and have been ttc for about 8 months, starting when I was 37. Given my FSH level (13.6) I moved on to fertility drugs very quickly after only trying naturally for a couple of months, first with letrozole (four cycles, two of which were with IUIs) and one cycle of injectibles (Menopur). On the Meonupur cycle, I started out with 3 vials and the response was not great, so they upped it to 4 vials and I had 4 follicles at around 13 mm, but only two matured. I did an IUI and it did not take. I am moving on to IVF next.

    I had a consult with the IVF RE and he generally went over the protocol they use but I don't remember the specifics. I know that he usually uses BCPs first, and the way the scheduling is working out with my cycle, I would be on BCPs for a full SIX WEEKS before starting the stimulation. I am very concerned, based on what I have read, that this would over-suppress my already sleepy ovaries. Is this a valid concern? Would it be a better idea to do another cycle of injectibles with IUI (which would take me over to the next four weeks), and then go on the BCPs for only two weeks before the stimulation?

    Also, any particular IVF protocol you would recommend? I've seen on your blog that you would not recommend Monopur and "micro-flare" protocols for DOR women, but what would you recommend instead?

    Also, would you recommend taking Lupron overlapping with BCPs even for DOR women? (I ask because I've heard Lupron can also have suppressive effects, and I'm not sure if this counts as the no-no Lupron protocl for DOR women or not.)

    Very confused here, but I want to make the most out of my first IVF cycle. Thanks so much for your help.

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  30. I wish I could provide you with a simple answer. Unfortunately without much more information, that would not be fair or right. So, please consider calling 800-780-7437 or 702-699-7437 to set up a telephone consultation (which is free for those living in the U.S.A or Canada) with me so we might discuss your case in detail.

    In the meanwhile, might I recommend that you go to www.IVFauthority.com. When you get to the home page on that site , you will find a "search bar" in the upper right hand column. Type in the following subjects into the bar and it will take you to all the relevant articles I posted there.

    1. "An Individualized Approach to Ovarian stimulation" Posted on November 22nd, 2010
    2. “Agonist/Antagonist Conversion Protocol”
    3. "Immunologic Implantation Dysfunction" (posted on May, 10th and on May 16th respectively.
    4. “IVF success: Factors that influence outcome”


    Geoff Sher

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  31. Follow-up to my comment at 2:34 pm:

    I spoke with my Dr.'s office and they told me they usually use the following four protocols, tweaked as necessary for individual patients: (1) agonist, (2) antagonist, (3) microdose flare, and (4) long luteal. Since the names of these protocols are different than the five you describe above I wasn't sure how they correspond to your five protocols above. I asked about estrogen priming and she said they sometimes do it but not always. Given the choices above, which protocol do you think is most suitable for me?

    Also, I have been taking DHEA for around 4 months. Do you recommend that to your patients? I've also read about positive responses with melatonin, but my RE said not to take it. Any thoughts on that?

    Thanks again.

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  32. 1.The agonist protocol is what I refer to in the blog as the long-GnRH agonist protocol(probably coming off the BCP).

    2. The antagonist protocol is the GnRH antagonist protocol

    3. The microdose flare protocol is the same as the GnRH ("microflare") protocol

    4. The long Luteal protocol is the same as #1 above only, (I think) not coming off the BCP but instead being started on/around day 21 of a natural cycle.

    I cannot without more information. I can tell you that I am NOT a fan of "microflare" protocols. I can not tell you what I would choose for you without more information. Feel free to call 800-780-7437 and set up a telephone consultation to discuss.

    I do not advocate the use of DHEA because it metabolized in the ovaries to testosterone and too much ovarian testosterone is the last thing you need.

    Hope this helps.

    Geoff Sher

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  33. Dear Doctor,
    Thanks for explaining wonderfully the different protocols and how they affect the cycle.In my many browsing on IVF,never have I come across such a detailed,logical explanation.I am 30 years and have been diagnosed with PCOS.My FSH/LH/AMH shows good ovarian reserve.I underwent 5 IUI cycles and then moved on to IVF.

    My first IVF,was long-Lupron protocol with BCP,overlapping with Lupron(20IU) for 14 days.After the onset of menstruation,I started on Ovugraph 225IU for 4 days after which the dose was reduced to 150IU and continued with Lupron(10IU) for another 4 days.Many follicles had developed but they stagnated after the dose reduction and I started bleeding mid-way of the cycle.Apparently I got over suppressed in the efforts to avoid OHSS and the cycle was cancelled.

    In my 2nd cycle,BCP was taken again and a GNrH-antagonist cycle was followed with Gynogen(225IU) & Ganirelix(started on day 5 of stimulation).I was administered HCG(5000IU) on 7th day of stimulation and 8 matured follicles yielded 8 eggs out of which only 4 got fertilized with ICSI. 1 was highly fragmented and 2 had smaller fragmentations.Last one was supposedly text book quality.The doctor said that they have the best chance of surviving in the natural environment and 3 of the embryos were transferred on day 3 with an endometrial thickness of 9mm.The estrogen levels where >3000 on the day of transfer but after four days of ET it came down to 169.I got a negative beta result after 2 weeks of being on progesterone/estrogen support.

    After reading your posts,I feel that the egg number/quality was compromised by the protocol followed in the second cycle.I found my case quite similar to the case history of Ann that you had posted.But considering my over suppression in the first cycle, the Long-Lupron also did not work for me.Would you please advice one that would be optimal for me considering my PCOS background,tendency for OHSS.

    Thanks
    Meena

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  34. Thank you for your kind comments. Personally I would have preferred recombinant FSH (FSHr) to menotropin (Ovugraph) which has considerable LH/hCG activity. However, I really would need to review your stimulation cycles in detail to comment further. You might consider sending all records to me and calling 702-892-9696 to set up a phone consultation to discuss.

    Geoff Sher

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